B744F Company question

[nwadc10]

"I was hoping one of our dispatchers would explain the re-release procedure because I couldn't remember the details and I still am uncertain about a couple points. On the LAX-ICN flight for example, the flight is released to PANC and while the flight plan goes all the way to ICN, correct? So when the crew gets their PDC their clearance limit is PANC and assuming fuel checks ok will get a new clearance in the air prior to reaching PANC, right? The other question I have is about exactly how you plan the fuel. I understand the flight is released with 10% of the fuel required to get to PANC, no problem there, but what about for the PANC/ICN portion. Is the 10% not required for that portion and if not you just need the fuel required by the rest of 121.645 such as the most distant alternate then hold at 1500 for 30 minutes? I'm mostly just unclear on how much fuel is required per the regs after getting the re-release. Great topic guys... Justin"

[mlegein]

"

Hi Craig, as english is not my native language....so if I understood correctly...for fuel planning according your example you pretend to fly from LAX to PANC and recalculate the rest of fuel from PANC to ICN? Why that?

I would strongly encourage everyone with questions on re-releases to download and read the excellent document I mentioned a few posts above. It should answer many questions. I know there are some utilities for fuel calculations but the document explains the reason behind it."

[Anthony Saraceno 1464]

wow didnt expect this thread to get this big lol thanks everyone but is there an average u think we could use for the reserve block in the FMC for those 7-10 hour long hauls? obviously for that 10% rule every hour up in flight time its going to add more fuel but is there any average that we can use instead of doing the whole entire process which seems very lengthy and hard to understand lol

[dave colavecchio]

"The fuel (burn) to get to RKSI will be built into the Anchorage release as extra fuel. (gotta watch your max landing weight, if you use Anchorage, you can't be overweight when you get there as that is illegal ) The flight plan the pilot gets would have a new release on it for each rerelease airport. So they don't have to get a new PDC or release. If the captain has the fuel at the rerelease point- he will generally accept it, the dispatcher has already basically authorized it when he sent it back at KLAX. All you are really doing is tinkering with the 10%. If you want to save yourself the aggravation- plan to land with @ 35 pounds and just give yourself an enroute alternate in case the weather goes bad on you at the destination while you are enroute... Going to Seoul I'd use Tokyo RJAA, Chitose RJCC, or Khabarovsk UHHH depending on the routing. Michel - that is a good file, albeit a bit lengthy.- it does show how the fuel is presented to the pilots...."

[Craig Applegate 1207]

"It just a way to lessen the 10 percent. The 10 percent is applied to the both sectors. The crew does have all the info onboard at departure, but we must make contact with the crew via acars or san fran radio to provide the cpt with an updated recalculated release 2 hrs before reaching the point of re-release. We use Panc alot due to curfew restictions with most airports in japan being closed between 1400z-2100z we cant plan to use them except for emergencies(as ETPs)"

[dave colavecchio]

"Very cool info Craig - at American Trans Air all the info was provided to the crew prior to departure and we'd watch and wait. No action was required like you guys have to do. That's a lot like work! No acars at ATA and those phone patches with San Fran, Houston, or Stockholm radio were something I got through as fast as possible. I'm very lucky to have satcom and Arinc (kinda like acars) - it sends messages through the fmc - to our business jets. Satcom is incredible- 30 seconds to get a hold of airplane anywhere in the world. Do you guys have problems with landing weight at PANC westbound or do you guys do a backwards reclear. (where the reclear point is past the reclear airport) Sorry guys- I'm curious and I know this is probably more in depth than most want to go."

[Craig Applegate 1207]

"Dave, I agree on the phone patches, Its tough at imes to communicate that way. Atlas has the luxury of Satcom as well but we do not. In the case of PANC we do a backwards reclear. The re-release point is usullay around NYMPH on R220 so landing weight isnt a problem. The landing weight is a factor in which we take into account when selecting the initial airport and the reclear point. You always want the point to be the farthest along the route without adding any fuel."

[Brogs]

"Satcom, Backwards re-clear, forward re-clear, illegal weights! I,m going to lie down,I have a Headache ! Mike"

[dave colavecchio]

"Sorry Mike - I know this thread got to be a little more in depth than it should have. This is just what dispatchers like Craig and I do for a living so it's possibly interesting to only us. But if anyone is trying to comprehend what we are talking about- it gives you a good look into how complex the flight plans actually are and what the real crews are watching as they cross these big oceans. It also shows people how cumbersome and critical that 10% contigency can be. I don't think anyone for flight simulator should be trying to calculating reclears, equal time points, or extended range entry points ( I don't)"

[Brogs]

"Just joking Dave ! I actually find it quite interesting, to that extent I d/loaded CROSSATL.ZIP from AVSIM . Safe Landings, Mike "

[cyoo eddie]

"

Satcom, Backwards re-clear, forward re-clear, illegal weights! I,m going to lie down,I have a Headache ! Mike

Im feeling a little dizzy right now, nothing new there...lol very interesting topic, It shows you what airline companies go through to save a few bucks on fuel, definatly a big cost over a year. This would be a little tricky to implement in a va I think.... but then again.....hmmm"

[chevol]

"Definitely very interesting! I understand now why my nephew (the 743 captain) gets upset when I tell him that, after take-off; he only has a few buttons to play with and that they are all on the stewardess's blouse... I would be interested to know how often flights cannot reach the final planned destination because of fuel shortage and have to land at one of the alternates. My nephew says that one of his biggest problem is fuel (between Honolulu and Japan) because he only has a couple of alternates (Wake and Midway - I think...). He prefers not to think about what would happen if he had a depressurization half way and had to come down to 10,000ft! However they (should) always have enough fuel to go down to 13,000ft, reach an airport and circle for 15mn... after that they turn into a big glider. Luc"

[cyoo eddie]

"

he only has a few buttons to play with and that they are all on the stewardess's blouse...

That is the only part about flying cargo I dont like, lack of stewardess's "

[Craig Applegate 1207]

"In the 2 years I have been working the desk, I never had a plane divert due to insufficient fuel at the point of re-release. I have had a couple of times where they were short, but i came up with solutions to over come that shortage such as by dropping the destination alternate (wx permitting) or by shortening his rte. As far as the rapid D. we use ETP airports on all ocean crossings to make sure we can get to an airport at 10,000 ft on 2 engines."

[dave colavecchio]

If you want to get into critical fuel scenarios- start another thread and I'll be happy to discuss them. As far as the L-1011 Tristar goes- there were certain scenarios on a west coast U.S. to Hawaii wher the Captain would have to choose between putting the passengers to sleep for a while or make them go swimming! I think they'd all choose sleeping for a while beacause of low oxygen rather than swimming in the mid Pacific!