Globe Cargo

My question is directed to RW Classic drivers, or at least someone very well versed in CIVA INS utilization.

Approaching TOD on the SADDE 6 into LAX, ATC (I'm assuming a need to deconflict w/traffic), clears me via the MOORPARK 3. (I almost blurted it out on VATSIM, "You've gotta be $h!#!n& me!") Needless to say, I was frantically recomputing descent points and speeds, attempting to make altitude restrictions, all while I'm rusty as a nail because I haven't done this in over five months. ( I guess that's a lesson learned!)

Bottom line; How would/well/do you handle a STAR and/or approach that is changed by ATC mid-flight? One certainly doesn't have time to "button mash" all those coordinates in for a STAR change during the descent. What is the most efficient way to fly a STAR and/or approach that was changed from your filed FP?

Sounds like a mess to me Ted, I think I would have said "Fine, I'll just go with vectors to final now."

Well, if you have INS, and make it known on VATSIM in your flight plan, chances of getting cleared to an RNAV STAR are pretty rare, or so I have seen. If its not an RNAV arrival, youll just have to do it "old old school" and fly the VOR radial while you enter the coordinates. Another option is to tell the ATC "unable" and request your filed STAR. In the real world, you would have had control and flown the VOR radial, and your F/O would have likely been frantically punching all those CDU keys.

Yeah, I would've been like "uh, sorry unable. Kinda stuck in the past; Using INS. Request vectors or continue filed arrival."

That's why I love the good 'ole (new) -400. As my uncle used to say, Keep it simple stupid.

yoni63 wrote:Sounds like a mess to me Ted, I think I would have said "Fine, I'll just go with vectors to final now."

I thought about that. I figure it's an effective way of shifting the burden right back to the controller who's trying to ruin my day.

Seriously, I'd like to know what happens in the real world regarding STARS and INS FP's. I'm assuming because they have an effective dispatch, their FP's are correct right from the start. I know that RW INS plans don't have waypoints every 30 miles like is common when using glass.

Geeze, I'd hate to try to figure out a hold using INS......

STARs can be changed for a number of reasons in flight. I've had ATC change the STAR while I was already established on a different one. But, being a "glass driver" it's no problem

In your situation here's what I would do and probably is done in the real world. Just go raw data. Tune in the navaid freqs and fly it navaid to navaid just like the old days. Unless the STAR is an RNAV procedure you will be able to accomplish the arrival using old school navigation.

As for your initial actions when receiving a clearance that changes your arrival without enough notification to INS program it just ask for vectors to the fix ATC has cleared you to. Usually an initial heading is all you would need to get you headed in that direction while you setup the nav radios. ATC doesn't have any problems giving you a vector unless the airspace is very busy and the vector is to a distant fix.

The sudden change of a STAR is almost a non-issue with no need to worry about it. If a VATSIM controller gives you attitude when following my suggestion above tell them they aren't being realistic

nwadc10 wrote:STARs can be changed for a number of reasons in flight. I've had ATC change the STAR while I was already established on a different one. But, being a "glass driver" it's no problem

In your situation here's what I would do and probably is done in the real world. Just go raw data. Tune in the navaid freqs and fly it navaid to navaid just like the old days. Unless the STAR is an RNAV procedure you will be able to accomplish the arrival using old school navigation.

As for your initial actions when receiving a clearance that changes your arrival without enough notification to INS program it just ask for vectors to the fix ATC has cleared you to. Usually an initial heading is all you would need to get you headed in that direction while you setup the nav radios. ATC doesn't have any problems giving you a vector unless the airspace is very busy and the vector is to a distant fix.

The sudden change of a STAR is almost a non-issue with no need to worry about it. If a VATSIM controller gives you attitude when following my suggestion above tell them they aren't being realistic

Or you can report them, thats always fun. Give 'em a taste of their own medicine....

checking both stars, the sadde6 is landing to the west, the moorpark3 is landing to the east.....
now you know why these old birds were flown with a 3 man crew.... I find the 742 to be very stressfull flying into a busy airport like lax on vatsim, you
really need to be on your toes...
What I do when flying any 747 is get a metar report fairly well in advance to determin the runway direction, and listen in on center to determin which stars are being used.
Brushing up on vor/dme nav for just such an occassion is good too, but I find , as you Ted, that I get rusty fast on the 742, and find it can be a handful at times.
Where were you flying in from, maybe atc assumed the moorpark would be better for you??

cyoo eddie wrote:Where were you flying in from, maybe atc assumed the moorpark would be better for you??

I was flying a Northwest Cargo 742 flight (PANC-KLAX) with another VA that I fly for. You know Ed, he did have me land to the East vice the usual West. (Maybe the controller was a lot smarter than I give him credit for....) I live in Moorpark and routinely see aircraft over head inbound for LAX. Because it's still daylight-into-dusk when I see them overhead, they must be on the SADDE 6. It's probably not until well after 2300L that they start the MOORPARK arrival.

Regarding actual INS routes, as I mentioned, I'm sure crew didn't have waypoints programmed every 30nm or so like you see with FMC's. What did/do they do to try to minimize having to "hawk" the INS, either enroute or on approaches? I find myself fiddling with DME updating all the time, probably when I really don't need to. And, since I use the AEDU function, I alternate "pages" of waypoints between INS 1 and 2.

I'm curious what you all do when navigating via INS. Any tips or advice on what you do?