Missed Airport.

[esurfman]

Hey Justin...isn't a NWA aircraft that missed their airport by 200nm??

[chevol]

The entire storry sounds very bizarre, no radio... how could they miss the TOD alt reset warning ? Do we know the true storry ???

[Brogs]

Fast asleep !!, they came up with some lame excuse they were having a severe argument about Company Policy, yeah right, they were knocking the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz,s out .

[AmundRe]

Fast asleep !!, they came up with some lame excuse they were having a severe argument about Company Policy, yeah right, they were knocking the zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz,s out .

I heard about that while I was in South Carolina this past weekend, that's insane, they had to be sleeping, how else do you miss TOD and not hear the warnings, let alone all of the panicked yelling that ATC was probably doing

[1691]

The entire storry sounds very bizarre, no radio... how could they miss the TOD alt reset warning ? Do we know the true storry ???

There is no aural warning on the A320 when you are at TOD. Just a flashing DECEL alert above the FMA. What I find interesting is that the Airbus wont move past a hold on the last waypoint of the flight plan, so why did it continue on a selected heading. Oh to be a fly in that cockpit.

[Kevin Hester]

I'd imagine the aural warnings from ATC and the FA should have been heard. I'd also imagine flight dispatch was sending messages prompting SELCAL/ACARS to go awall. I'd like to be the NTSB investigator that gets to listen to the CVR of that flight. Must have been a heck of a convo.

The entire storry sounds very bizarre, no radio... how could they miss the TOD alt reset warning ? Do we know the true storry ???

There is no aural warning on the A320 when you are at TOD. Just a flashing DECEL alert above the FMA. What I find interesting is that the Airbus wont move past a hold on the last waypoint of the flight plan, so why did it continue on a selected heading. Oh to be a fly in that cockpit.

I was thinking the same thing. It's possible that this would endue a 91.3, 91.11, 91.123 and 91.135 infractions. Makes me wonder if they took care of the CVR in flight.

[nwadc10]

As far as ATC yelling their ear, that probably only happened over the period of 10-15 minutes as they flew through the zone of initial handoff and out of radio range of the original controller. It wouldn't have been a constant badgering by the controller either because they have to divide their attention between this flight and the many others in their airspace which require instructions also. I'm guessing this flight wasn't monitoring 121.5 per the regs and I'm sure company policy which ATC would have used to get the proper frequency to them.

It is very easy to miss radio calls when in any conversation let alone a heated debate so their story is not only plausible but probable. I'd rather use that excuse than sleeping. One check of the CVR would prove them lying and I'm sure they would get the accelerated path to the unemployment line in that case.

The part of the story that really makes me wonder is why when the end of the flight plan line on their MFD come and go didn't they say...hey, what the hell!

I don't know if these planes have SELCAL but if they do, the ATC in the midwest (or anywhere any distance from coastlines) doesn't have the equipment to invoke SELCAL. Furthurmore, while the company probably tried to contact them, without an aural notification of a received ACARS message, they would have seen the "end of the line" before they noticed the message waiting.

[Kevin Hester]

Well the plot thickens as they say. It seems they also had laptops aiding in the distractions.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,569557,00.html

*EDIT*

The SELCAL part slipped my mind though.

[khelm]

Problem here.

They won't be fired for sleeping. As I have been told, the A320 that they were flying still had the 30 minute CVR vs. the more modern 2 hour one. Any proof would have been far gone by the time they landed at MSP.

However they are possibly losing their ATP license from the FAA for a bunch of stuff. Mainly inattention.

They're whole "argument" story ALMOST worked, until the FAA got involved lol


Federal Aviation Adminstration: We're not happy until you're not happy

[nwadc10]

I flew with a captain the night after this happened and he heard first hand an exchange between this flight and ATC. ATC asked if they had an explanation as to what happened. The crew wasn't going to try to get out of it and said, no, just cockpit distractions.

Laptops aren't completely uncommon to be pulled out on an airbus since it's so easy with the lack of a yoke (good job airbus ). I've heard of it several times from other pilots who have jumpseated on the plane. Here's the interesting thing though about this particular "distraction". My company has instituted a policy of no materials in the cockpit that are non essential to the flight. This means no newspaper, no magazines, no nothing. There is an unintended consequence here. Anyone who thinks most crews are well rested and alert is smoking something from the land of make-believe. I often fly without being well rested, it's the nature of the business and our schedules and I fit in the 99 percentile of the typical airline pilot. Without something in the cockpit to keep our brains alert in some way there would be many more instances of pilots falling asleep. Once you get to cruise, the flight is very boring and the only thing for the pilot flying to do is check the instruments every now and then. Very little brain power is required hence the need for something to stimulate brain function. So, before crews get crucified for having a laptop out (which is most likely an airbus only crew), it's a tool for actually maintaining alertness when the brain wants to sleep. However, from what I've heard so far, it's the argument that was the distraction and not sleepiness.

I do find it interesting that the media isn't jumping all over the crew like they would have if it was a regional flight. Of course it's not *their* fault, they must have been tired is what they have to say about that. While the media enjoys engaging in less than admirable practices and won't say or hint at the following: this goes to show you that everyone makes mistakes regardless of level of experience. A Delta 767 crew landed on a taxiway at ATL the same day the Northwest flight flew passed MSP. I thought only regional airlines make mistakes...hmmm.

[Kevin Hester]

I found another article that goes more indepth. The last sentence in this quote reminded me of SELCAL.

Many aviation safety experts had said it was more plausible that the pilots had fallen asleep during the cruise phase of their flight last Wednesday night than that they had become so focused on a conversation that they lost awareness of their surroundings for such a lengthy period of time. Air traffic controllers in Denver and Minneapolis repeatedly tried without success to raise the pilots of the San Diego-to-Minneapolis flight by radio. Other pilots in the vicinity tried reaching the plane on other radio frequencies. Their airline tried contacting them using a radio text message that chimes.

There is also more to the story;

Authorities became so alarmed that National Guard jets were readied for takeoff at two locations and the White House Situation Room alerted senior White House officials, who monitored Northwest Flight 188 with its 144 passengers and five crew members as the Airbus A320 flew across a broad swath of the mid-continent completely out of contact with anyone on the ground.

http://news.aol.com/article/wayward-pil ... s%2F735575

I'm curious to see how this is going to turn out.

[yoni63]

Another note I was considering in regard to ATC "hollaring" at them is this: Initially it was lost contact via radio, shortly thereafter, this flight was considered a high probability of hijack in progress. This alone would cause a "stand down" on the radio, otherwise the continued panicking by ATC would be an obvious give-away to hijackers that the jig was up and ground knew something was wrong. Just like predesignated squawk codes and other known and unknown procedures, it is alot better off for the safety of the crew and the passengers if the hijacker(s) "DON'T" know that anyone on the ground is aware they are there. It gives the hijackers a false sense of security that they still have plenty of time to do what they need to do, otherwise it makes them desperate and in the view of radicals that would be the end usually.

[eek]

With most aviation incidents, I understand there's a lot of hype from the media, as they prey upon people's fears of flying, and I tend to sympathize with the pilots. However, in this case, what these guys have done is inexcusable. They flew 150 miles past their destination, which means about 300 miles past TOD. That's at least half an hour with nobody flying the plane, while they're watching porn or something (I'm not buying the work schedule crap, either). This one's a no-brainer. Fire 'em both. I'm not saying they aren't entitled due process. But that due process should be stunningly swift.

I would be more understanding if they said they fell asleep.

[yoni63]

I think they got worse.. they lost their tickets... They are done period. Too harsh. TOD would have only been roughly 250 miles, don't forget, 350-400 knts.. Thats not a ton of time like it might seem. I agree, they screwed up, but the time factor was quicker than everyone realizes.

[thansson]

Bryan, I must disagree with you here. The time factor is not about by how much they missed the TOD or how far past their destination they got while being distracted. The fact is that they were out of radio communications for 78 minutes! I know from my own real-world flying that if Center is quiet for more than 10 minutes - which has happened in Ottawa due to the fact that I fly in "quiet" sectors of their airspace - I usually do a radio check with them just to make sure that my radio still works...

Totally pulling their licenses could seem harsh - a 3 month suspension or something like that probably would be more fair and I wouldn't be surprised if the decision was appealed (I assume that there is such a process with FAA that is similar to the one we have with Transport Canada up here).