Getting a bit quiet in here ....

[BarryTheAviator]

"It has been getting a bit quiet in this lounge recently. Quite a new few pilots joining us (welcome to you all by the way) and some leaving due to work committments (sorry to see you go) also the occasional ""firing"" because of lack of participation (no comment except don't join if you do not want to take part). I am sure that out there is loads of experience of flying in both the real world and in the virtual world of the VA and FlightSim which would be good if it could be shared with us lesser mortals. One thing that I know I could improve on are my landings - I'm lucky if i get touchdown rate less than 500 fpm. I usually fly the approach without autoland but use the AP to follow the glidescope and localiser on the ILS. It is when I get to about 100 feet that I turn off the AP and then try to do the last part ""by hand"" - often with a reasonable but heavy landing. Any tips to save wear on those tyres and the undercarriage? I have only tried a completely manual approach (i.e. no A/P at all for speed, direction or height) a couple of times - both times I just about ""got in"" but they were not a pretty sight. Any tips would be greatly appreciated before I break the legs off this beautiful bird one day."

[esurfman]

I agree with you Barry. I guess one thing to do is a lot of touch and go's. One thing that would have been nice was that we maybe could have used Teamspeak to have more or less like a seminar given by somebody like M. Kuiper and then we could have asked questions. Or maybe a video.... <!--emo&B)-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img]<!--endemo--> Just food for thaught.

[chevol]

"Hello Barry, I do exactly like you and I experience the same difficulties. It is worse with cross winds! (Ralph must be getting huge invoices for all the runway lights I break?). I am fairly irregular in my landings but I noticed a few things: - trying to be brave (hall of fame?) I try to carry heavy loads (180,000lbs or more), so I have a regular landing weight around 560,000lbs and, in these cases, I never get less than 500fpm on touch down, so far. I probably have too much fuel left. - With a smaller load (around 150,000lbs) I get better results IF I do not reduce the engines to idle too soon! I have a tendency to go to idle when I hear the GPWS calling 40 and this is certainly too early. I get much better results if I wait a bit longer. But, being a glider pilot, I am a bit obsessed with short landings and this is silly with 10,000 ft runways. One does not change quickly? - I reduced the neutral zone on my joystick to have a more precise rounding up and it seems to help. - I also programmed 2 buttons for differential braking and it helps (a bit) to keep off the grass but this remains my BIG problem. I hate to finish a nice flight with 4, 6 or even more wheels in the grass!!! If anyone has a solution, please help? Cheers, Luc "

[BarryTheAviator]

"<!--QuoteBegin-chevol+Jul 6 2005, 09:53 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(chevol @ Jul 6 2005, 09:53 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hello Barry, I do exactly like you and I experience the same difficulties. It is worse with cross winds! (Ralph must be getting huge invoices for all the runway lights I break?). I am fairly irregular in my landings but I noticed a few things: - trying to be brave (hall of fame?) I try to carry heavy loads (180,000lbs or more), so I have a regular landing weight around 560,000lbs and, in these cases, I never get less than 500fpm on touch down, so far. I probably have too much fuel left. - With a smaller load (around 150,000lbs) I get better results IF I do not reduce the engines to idle too soon! I have a tendency to go to idle when I hear the GPWS calling 40 and this is certainly too early. I get much better results if I wait a bit longer. But, being a glider pilot, I am a bit obsessed with short landings and this is silly with 10,000 ft runways. One does not change quickly? - I reduced the neutral zone on my joystick to have a more precise rounding up and it seems to help. - I also programmed 2 buttons for differential braking and it helps (a bit) to keep off the grass but this remains my BIG problem. I hate to finish a nice flight with 4, 6 or even more wheels in the grass!!! If anyone has a solution, please help? Cheers, Luc [right][snapback]4142[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Luc, Thanks for this - we have very similar methods - I usually fly with high cargo loads and also like short landings (I fly light aircraft in real life and like to keep the roll out really short and touch down early) - but as you say with 10,000 of runway why am I trying to do this with the RFP? Also being used to light aircraft where the landing is really a controlled stall (and not always that controlled!) - I slip into using the same technique with the RFP rather than flying it onto the runway. I will try adjusting the joystick stettings, as I do find it too sensitive in pitch for fine control. I have never had a serious problem in keeping straight after landing - I use the numeric keypad (numlock OFF) 0 key for left, Enter key for right and 5 to centre the steering on the ground - works for me. "

[globecar]

"Something that we should all keep in mind is Cargo aircraft generally fly much lighter than a passenger aircraft of the same type. Most often the cargo is bulky but seldom translates into weight. Loading up a 3,000 pound luxury car in the back end of the 742 would probably take up the same space as 50 passengers at 170 pounds each or 8,500 pounds total. I feel that these landing weights of 560,000 pounds may be a little on the heavy side for most 742's carrying freight or at least would be on the rare side."

[big_al]

I wonder if all the pilots fly real weather? that might have something to do with better numbers as I flew into a HEAVY thunderstorm saturday on my flight into Frankfurt. It was exciting but didnt make for great numbers!

[wijnand]

"<!--QuoteBegin-big_al+Jul 7 2005, 07:03 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(big_al @ Jul 7 2005, 07:03 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I wonder if all the pilots fly real weather? that might have something to do with better numbers as I flew into a HEAVY thunderstorm saturday on my flight into Frankfurt. It was exciting but didnt make for great numbers! [right][snapback]4158[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, I fly with FS real world weather all the time, but I feel that the wind is overrated. I have had lessons in a Piper Warrior II (PA28) and in real life a 8 knots crosswind would have the same (or less!) effect on us as a 4 knots crosswind in FS in a 747. During my last flight (polar air) I was on a ILS-approach at Dubai in low visibility. When I saw the runway at last I decided to do a manual landing and switched off the autopilot. I barely made it, and had difficulties in keeping her straight. (I got blown to the right). FSkeeper logges a ""excessive yaw to the left"". (FSkeeper reminds me of a few mothers in law I know; never satisfied, always complaining!! <!--emo&:P-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tongue.gif[/img]<!--endemo--> ) For my next flight I will use no wind and see what difference that makes. May the wind be at you back, Wijnand"

[BarryTheAviator]

"<!--QuoteBegin-globecar+Jul 6 2005, 02:34 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(globecar @ Jul 6 2005, 02:34 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Something that we should all keep in mind is Cargo aircraft generally fly much lighter than a passenger aircraft of the same type. Most often the cargo is bulky but seldom translates into weight. Loading up a 3,000 pound luxury car in the back end of the 742 would probably take up the same space as 50 passengers at 170 pounds each or 8,500 pounds total. I feel that these landing weights of 560,000 pounds may be a little on the heavy side for most 742's carrying freight or at least would be on the rare side. [right][snapback]4145[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ralph, I usually load up with 200,00 lbs freight which gives me a landing weight of about 560 - 580 k lbs. What would a good average load be - somewhere round the 100 - 150 klbs mark? "

[nwadc10]

"This is a good topic. This is the technique I use... First, we need to know what the tones mean that we pass through on approach. There are a total of 4 tones, only three of them we will be concerned with while landing. The first tone will sound at 2500' on the radar/radio altimeter, this is the tone we don't need to worry about. The remaining tones sound at: 50' (low pitch tone) 20' (medium pitch tone) 10' (high pitch tone) All heights are based off the radar altimeter and automatically sound at the heights listed above. Imagine yourself on a 1 mile final and lined up on the centerline. Now think your way through the rest of the approach and landing using the following technique. As we approach the runway threshold, we should be stable...on glideslope and on target airspeed...that's the first step to a succesfull landing. We cross the threshold at about 50' AGL at which time the low pitch tone will sound. Consider this a notification to prepare to flare and reduce power. Keep in mind, don't touch the power, leave it where it is and don't begin the flare yet. We descend further and hear the medium pitch tone, or 20' above the runway. At this time, SLOWLY begin to reduce power and begin to pitch up for the flare, be gentle though because you still have 20' to go. The high pitch tone sounds, or 10' above the runway...throttle should be at idle or nearly there, continue to pitch up in the flare. When the runway appears to no longer get larger (from descending closer to the runway) hold that pitch and let the airplane fly itself onto the runway. The GPWS tones are checkpoints which tell you that you need to do something or prepare to do something. Using this technique I consistantly achieve touchdown rates of -300 fpm and occasionally get it below 100 fpm. Try that and report back here how it works. Justin"

[yoni63]

"Just one thing to input, and Justin definitely knows his stuff being a CFII. One of my problems in landings when I started flying real world years ago was my eyesight placement. I would focus in on the threshold and almost just keep it there all the time until time to be thinking about touching down... You would be surprised what eyesight placement will do for you. We tend to go where we are looking. If you don't believe me, next time you are driving, look out the right side of your car and just keep looking and see where your car ends up! <!--emo&:o-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/ohmy.gif[/img]<!--endemo--> My instructor was an old F-4 pilot with eons of hours, he always told me on approach, while watching VASI lights etc, always focus your gaze at the far end of the runway and as you near, you begin to focus on your touchdown zone. This was supposed to prevent you from ""forcing"" the ship down onto the ground because you were so focused on the threshold area. It helped me, and I am having to recall some of that now flying the RFP. So give it a try along with what Justin said and see what happens? Hope it helps!"

[BarryTheAviator]

"<!--QuoteBegin-nwadc10+Jul 7 2005, 03:37 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nwadc10 @ Jul 7 2005, 03:37 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As we approach the runway threshold, we should be stable...on glideslope and on target airspeed...that's the first step to a succesfull landing.  We cross the threshold at about 50' AGL at which time the low pitch tone will sound.  Consider this a notification to prepare to flare and reduce power.  Keep in mind, don't touch the power, leave it where it is and don't begin the flare yet.  We descend further and hear the medium pitch tone, or 20' above the runway.  At this time, SLOWLY begin to reduce power and begin to pitch up for the flare, be gentle though because you still have 20' to go.  The high pitch tone sounds, or 10' above the runway...throttle should be at idle or nearly there, continue to pitch up in the flare.  When the runway appears to no longer get larger (from descending closer to the runway) hold that pitch and let the airplane fly itself onto the runway.  The GPWS tones are checkpoints which tell you that you need to do something or prepare to do something.  Using this technique I consistantly achieve touchdown rates of -300 fpm and occasionally get it below 100 fpm.  Try that and report back here how it works. Justin [right][snapback]4167[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This sounds very good - I will try it this weekend and report back. From your description it sounds like I am doing everything far too early - I usually have the power chopped on the first tone and well into the flare by the second - but I must admit I have not been using the tones as signals for action. The other posting from yoni about where to look is very interesting - as I think I mentioned I am a PPL and do just the opposite! On the approach I am looking at the proposed touchdown point until just before the flare and then look at the far end of the runway thoughout the flare and touch down. The theory being your hands follow your eyes and you naturally lift the nose of the aircraft as the eyes lift - whatever works for you!"

[nwadc10]

"<!--QuoteBegin-BarryTheAviator+Jul 8 2005, 07:02 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BarryTheAviator @ Jul 8 2005, 07:02 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The other posting from yoni about where to look is very interesting - as I think I mentioned I am a PPL and do just the opposite! On the approach I am looking at the proposed touchdown point until just before the flare and then look at the far end of the runway thoughout the flare and touch down. The theory being your hands follow your eyes and you naturally lift the nose of the aircraft as the eyes lift - whatever works for you! [right][snapback]4188[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You are correct, Barry, and I was thinking the same thing when I read Bryan's post. Bryan, did you accidentally reverse what you intended to write? If not, please explain in more detail the technique you describe. On final, you should be focusing on your aiming point (but don't forget about what else is going on around you, including the rest of the runway!). The object is to keep your aiming point on the same point on your windscreen with no relative movement...in other words it appears to be still only getting larger in size as you get closer. Once in the flare your eyes should shift to the end of the runway. Doing this will give you a greater sense of height above the ground. If you fail to do this by keeping your eyes focused just ahead of the airplane you will most likely have a very rough landing. Case in point...about a year ago I was flying a PA28R-201, a Piper Arrow III which is a ""complex"" airplane with retractable gear and flaps and a constant-speed propeller (that's the FAA's definition of a complex airplane). I was finishing a flight from KDLH to KSTC, my home airport and I departed KDLH right about dusk so I knew I would be making a night landing...I also knew my landing light was inop. The landing light being inop wasn't a big deal, I've landed at night before in my training with the landing light turned off to practice situations just like I had this night. As I crossed the threshold at KSTC, I noticed the left nav light (green) lit the runway much more than I would have expected. Here's my mistake. Because I could see the runway markings if I looked down and to the left, I could actually see the runway surface I figured that might work better (even though I really did know better than not to do that). That runway came up on me very fast resulting in a hard, 3 point landing. Because my eyes were focused so near the airplane I was unable to judge my height above the ground with any accuracy. Had I shifted my eyes to the far end of the runway and used the runway edge lights as a reference like I had been taught (and will emphasize when I teach my own students), the landing would have been uneventful. The good news is that first, I didn't bend or break anything and second, it was late at night, past everyone's bed time so I was the only witness to that carrier landing <!--emo&:)-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]<!--endemo--> Justin"

[BarryTheAviator]

"<!--QuoteBegin-nwadc10+Jul 7 2005, 03:37 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nwadc10 @ Jul 7 2005, 03:37 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Try that and report back here how it works. Justin [right][snapback]4167[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Worked a dream - got a ""very good"" for the landing so it looks like this works for me. Many thanks"

[nwadc10]

"Glad to hear it's working, Barry, and I'm sure Ralph is too...now he doesn't have to pay for so many tire changes <!--emo&:)-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]<!--endemo--> Justin"

[BarryTheAviator]

"<!--QuoteBegin-nwadc10+Jul 11 2005, 01:10 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nwadc10 @ Jul 11 2005, 01:10 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Glad to hear it's working, Barry, and I'm sure Ralph is too...now he doesn't have to pay for so many tire changes <!--emo&:)-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img]<!--endemo--> Justin [right][snapback]4232[/snapback][/right] <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now all I have to do is to stop knocking the wing tips off when I am taxying <!--emo&^_^-->[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/happy.gif[/img]<!--endemo-->"