What is acceptable?

chevol · Post by **chevol** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 5:06 am

"Hi pilots, I am not very happy with my landing skills... this may be due to the hot weather in Geneva, it makes sitting in front of a screen quite unconfortable, particularly when I see that the outside temp is around -50 at FL360! My touchdown rates are inconsistent, I have been regularly below 500ft for a while and now I am always above... could experienced pilots tell me how it is in real life and what is acceptable. How far can I go before being grounded for damaging the under carriage? [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/angry.gif[/img] Thanks for your advice"

Post by **nwadc10** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 11:05 am

"Hi Luc, There was a discussion a while about about final approach and touchdown technique but I can't seem to find the post to send you the link. Can anyone else find that link and post it here? It contained a lot of good information and it's worth reading. Otherwise, what's acceptable is a relative term. The gear itself can withstand a touchdown at 2000 fpm, of course I wouldn't want to be a passenger on that flight [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] 500 fpm is a good start. What's more important than touchdown rate is touching down in the touchdown zone. Avoid excessive floating just to make the landing smooth otherwise there's a good chance you could be eating the grass on the departure end of the runway and flying for free for the next 100 yrs to pay Ralph back for the plane you broke [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile.gif[/img] If we can't find that post I'll write the technique I use here again and others can put their technique here also. Justin"

chevol · Post by **chevol** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 12:54 pm

"Thank you Justin, 2000ft max! that leaves some room, I am not that bad (yet!) I remember the post you mention, it was initiated by Barry, very interesting exchange. Have good flights"

Morn · Post by **Morn** » Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:03 am

"[img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/huh.gif[/img] Dude, 2000fpm is like stalling over the runway. That's how they used to land fighters on carriers in ww2. [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin.gif[/img]"

Schtirlitz · Post by **Schtirlitz** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 2:25 am

"I just talked to my buddy who is a KC10 flight instructor in teh Air Force, and so before he used to fly 747-200's and 100's in the airforce in Nebraska i think.. so he is tellimg me 747-200 supposed to be a VERY easy airplane to ""grease' landings (as opposed to KC10's) so to speak and 100-200 ft/min landing should be a norm.. In bad weather with wet or sleek runway surface they are tought to actually ""plant"" the planes into the runway at 300-500 ft/min.... However, if there is a landing that is above 1200 ft/min the plane goes to the hangar for gear X-rays and pilot has to write reports as why this happened."

stefltt · Post by **stefltt** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 1:58 pm

"Hey, I think this is the post you are talking about : <a href='http://globecargo.ipbhost.com/index.php ... =1061&st=0' target='_blank'>Landing Technique</a> Stephane"

mark_wilby · Post by **mark_wilby** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:41 am

"Hi All I'm quite interested in this discussion on landing rates! I can?t understand how you could get bellow 400fpm on a 3 deg glide slope. I?m no pilot but from what I have read on the internet, setting are based on your weight before FOF (Final Approach Fix) for landing, in most of my flights I try to haul as much cargo as possible say for instance my: Target landing weight will be 550 Flap settings for 550 are 1=224 5=206 10=203 20=161 125=147 30=141 Too calculate my descent after fully configured and .3nm before FOF I us this method: ? groundspeed * 10 + glidslope correction so 141/2= 70.5 * 10=705fpm +50fpm for every .25 above 3deg glideslop There will also be wind corrections but I?m leaving that out. I find no problems with this method. Another tip I picked up for Non precision approaches and using the VASI use 3 white and 1 red as your target touchdown target is the 1500feet marker as this allows good tail clearance. If any of this is incorrect I?m sorry it?s only what I use and more than welcome to any other suggestions. Regards Mark "

stefltt · Post by **stefltt** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 5:07 am

"Mark, they are talking about 500 fpm or below at flare and touchdown, not when descending on the 3° glidepath [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] Tried the landing technique discussed before (about aural sound at 50ft, 20ft and 10ft) and it works good, I've performed a ""good"" landing. Unfortunately, the yaw rate was too high and I lost some percentage with the yaw [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img] . Now let's open another discussion : What is acceptable for the yaw rate ? When I have some crosswind, I fly the final path with nose of the aircraft into the wind, so not really in the axis of the runway. Then, at flare, I apply some rudder to put the nose of the aircraft in the runway axis at touchdown (""Decraber"" in french). So what is your technique ?"

mark_wilby · Post by **mark_wilby** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 6:14 am

Sorry I miss understood the 400fpm now its loud and clear.

BarryTheAviator · Post by **BarryTheAviator** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:49 am

"<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(stefltt @ Oct 5 2005, 09:07 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>Mark, they are talking about 500 fpm or below at flare and touchdown, not when descending on the 3° glidepath [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/laugh.gif[/img] Tried the landing technique discussed before (about aural sound at 50ft, 20ft and 10ft) and it works good, I've performed a ""good"" landing. Unfortunately, the yaw rate was too high and I lost some percentage with the yaw [img]style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.gif[/img] . Now let's open another discussion : What is acceptable for the yaw rate ? When I have some crosswind, I fly the final path with nose of the aircraft into the wind, so not really in the axis of the runway. Then, at flare, I apply some rudder to put the nose of the aircraft in the runway axis at touchdown (""Decraber"" in french). So what is your technique ? [right][snapback]5295[/snapback][/right] </div> In direct answer I do not know what is an acceptable yaw rate. Cross wind landings are an interesting area of discussion - basically three methods:- 1. Crab-Decrab - ie fly into wind to keep on the centre line and then ""kick it straight"" just before touch down 2. Fly with one wing down to ""slip into the wind"" using aileron, and keep on the centre line with opposite rudder (crossed controls). You then flare and land as normal but the up wind wheels will touch down first 3. Mixture of using the crab method for the approach and then the crossed controls method for the last few hundred feet. I think (do not know) that the crab-decrab is recommended for the whale but I have seen some really scary photos of 747 crossed control landings where the upwind engine nacelles were nearly in contact with the runway so may be the method to be used depends on the strength of the wind, load etc. Personally I nearly always use crab-decrab, which by defintion will give a high yaw rate just before the wheels touch. Maybe passenger a/c use wing down (the yaw would be uncomfortable) and freighters crab-decrab? Anybody know for sure?"